17:00:00 _carrington[m]> Hey everyone it is meeting time! Here's an agenda:
17:00:01 _carrington[m]> https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/625
17:00:18 _MrSenshi[m]> _BusyBoredom[m]> "If this works by offline..." _- No?
17:00:28 _carrington[m]> 1. Introduction
17:00:56 _plowsof[m]> hi
17:00:59 _tobtoht> hi
17:01:10 _crypto_grampy[m]> 👋
17:01:11 _carrington[m]> This is a meeting to discuss whatever is going on in the Monero community. We can discuss CCS proposals, workgroup reports and any other relevant issues
17:01:14 _mj-xmr[m]> Hello!
17:01:24 _carrington[m]> 2. Greetings
17:01:25 _crypticentertain> Hello
17:01:33 _carrington[m]> Howdy
17:01:42 _Rucknium[m]> Hi
17:01:49 _ErCiccione> hi
17:01:56 sgp> Hello
17:02:18 _crypticentertain> Litesh this side from Cryptic Entertainments
17:02:18 _justverify[m]> Hi everyone
17:02:24 _sudo_ki[m]> ✌️
17:02:31 _carrington[m]> 3. Community highlights
17:02:31 _carrington[m]> Does anyone have any brief community highlights to discuss? Bigger issues can be left for the open time at the end of the meeting
17:02:51 ajs[m]> hi
17:03:53 _mj-xmr[m]> A small note for d), my proposal, before we move do b), OSPEAD: my proposal will be supporting OSPEAD.
17:04:06 _mj-xmr[m]> but not only, if more researchers come by.
17:04:17 _carrington[m]> I'll take this opportunity to plug https://www.monero.observer/ for keeping up with goings on, especially if you don't want to browse Reddit. escapethe3ra is doing a good job there.
17:04:32 ajs[m]> I posted an updated on XMR.radio https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/qlf16e/xmrradio_quarterly_transparency_report/
17:04:48 _mj-xmr[m]> carrington[m]: I can recommend it. A very lightweight page.
17:05:47 _carrington[m]> Xmr.radio is pretty awesome also
17:06:17 _carrington[m]> 4. CCS updates
17:06:35 _carrington[m]> a. Italian Mastering Monero
17:06:45 _carrington[m]> https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/251
17:06:58 _carrington[m]> I'm not sure if the proposer is here
17:07:40 _carrington[m]> The most recent comments suggest there might be a change of plan needed so maybe this should sit for now
17:08:28 _justverify[m]> Hi everyone. This is my proposal. I’m going to translate the first 4 chapters and then wait for the release of the second edition
17:08:28 _carrington[m]> I'll give a short while for comments and then move to the next proposal
17:09:11 _carrington[m]> Oh cool. Does that mean the CCS is going ahead at a later date?
17:09:27 _carrington[m]> I.e. when 2nd edition is coming up
17:10:05 sgp> SerHack: ^
17:10:26 _justverify[m]> carrington[m]: Yes that’s my plan. Going ahead right now would be nonsense since the 2 edition is coming up
17:10:56 _carrington[m]> Cool, could you please drop a comment on the proposal clarifying this plan?
17:11:23 _carrington[m]> b. OSPEAD - Fortifying Monero Against Statistical Attack
17:11:37 _carrington[m]> https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/255
17:11:45 _justverify[m]> carrington[m]: Sure
17:11:51 _carrington[m]> https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/py8ub3/ccs_proposal_ospead_fortifying_monero_against/
17:12:06 _Rucknium[m]> There have been some developments on OSPEAD:
17:12:06 _Rucknium[m]> https://www.monero.observer/articmine-isthmus-weigh-rucknium-ospead-proposal-feasibility/
17:12:53 _Rucknium[m]> ^ The summary of that article is that ArticMine believes my proposal is feasible, but wants to see some small modifications. Isthmus supports the proposal and suggested some extensions.
17:13:01 _carrington[m]> It seems there is consensus amongst the people who have read the vuln report that the work is worthwhile and important
17:13:54 _carrington[m]> I don't see much point in waiting until "doc A" is published before moving this to funding required
17:14:01 _Rucknium[m]> I think that is true. I do not yet have feedback from binaryFate, however. He has been busy with IRL work though.
17:14:35 _carrington[m]> But if people want to publicly verify this stuff before donating they can just hold off and donate later
17:14:38 _Rucknium[m]> binaryFate has had my HackerOne submission for over a month.
17:15:22 sgp> I think this should be moved. The process partially because of the VRP has been quite messy to say the least, but the CCS should be moved in any case
17:15:30 _ArticMine> I have not problem with moving this to funding stage
17:15:33 _ArticMine> no
17:17:00 _carrington[m]> If no one has objections I'll move on
17:17:08 _carrington[m]> c. Monero Community Anthem
17:17:13 _Rucknium[m]> Ok great. I can make appropriate edits to the CCS proposal text ASAP, e.g. change "mixin" to "decoy", incorporate suggestions, finalize the XMR amount, etc.
17:17:16 _carrington[m]> https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/259
17:17:49 _crypticentertain> That's my proposal. Please listen to our first version of monero anthem
17:17:58 _carrington[m]> Rucknium[m]: I guess you can decide yourself if you want to extend it by a couple of weeks as isthmus suggested
17:18:18 _crypticentertain> https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=bE-WPYKUNsM&feature=share
17:18:41 _Rucknium[m]> I think I will add 1.5 weeks. I think isthmus makes a good point -- don't have tunnel vision.
17:18:44 _crypticentertain> https://open.spotify.com/track/3C5HdGjCirqtAaEqBUPv76?si=6f710e4ec8ae4d50
17:18:55 _ErCiccione> carrington[m]: i initially downvoted it by actually i don't care
17:19:36 _carrington[m]> Do people have any questions about the scope and requested amount?
17:20:05 _carrington[m]> Requested amount is 20 XMR
17:21:07 _crypticentertain> We've released this track on multiple streaming platforms. The funds will be used to make 4k quality music video as well as remastered version of monero anthem
17:21:56 _ArticMine> How will it be licensed?
17:21:58 crypticentertain> We use the following cameras for video shooting:... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/491f1109cdf5a9d49c3694643f3c54518387f14c)
17:23:01 _carrington[m]> A quick plug for the Monero Community Art fund which has a system for crowd funding art/media: moneroart.neocities.org
17:23:26 _crypticentertain> It's an original artwork. We own the complete license. The community can use it anywhere anytime and there won't be any copyright claims or strikes.
17:24:02 _ArticMine> That is great, but it should be made explicit with a Free Culture license
17:24:52 _crypticentertain> It would be a royalty free track and no approval will be needed to use this track
17:25:23 _ArticMine> with GPLv3 compatibility
17:25:30 _crypticentertain> ArticMine: Yes. Definitely! that's my vision
17:25:44 _Rucknium[m]> crypticentertainments: I believe you can explicitly give the track and music video a specific Creative Commons license
17:26:33 _crypticentertain> Rucknium[m]: Yes. Absolutely. We'll publish this under common license.
17:27:16 _carrington[m]> Well I think of you can add that to the proposal so that it is a condition of payout then that addresses those concerns
17:27:25 _mj-xmr[m]> "Creative Commons License" is a given name. It's not a common license. I'm sorry if this sounds offensive 🙂
17:28:28 _crypticentertain> carrington[m]: Yes. I'm adding this in the comment section
17:29:28 _carrington[m]> d. mj part time dev for Q4 2021
17:29:40 _carrington[m]> https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/266
17:30:40 _carrington[m]> Also, crypticentertainments I think it would be a good idea to make a reddit post for your proposal if you haven't already
17:31:15 _mj-xmr[m]> So I've been doing this simulator for 9 years now, and am more of a practitioner than a researcher, so I just deliver tools for the researchers. I have a lot of exp here and continuously improve the runtime speed, etc., just like I do for Monero, but here I don't have to ask nobody to merge my PRs.
17:31:33 _ArticMine> I would suggest https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/ or something more permissive if desired
17:31:55 _mj-xmr[m]> I will also not be doing JUST the simulator, as the usual Monero firefighting duties also have to be done by someone.
17:32:03 _crypticentertain> carrington[m]: Sure. I'll make one and share in the comment section of the proposal.
17:32:53 _mj-xmr[m]> Regarding the license, I'm strongly considering Affero GPLv.3, but I'm hoping, that I can count on your continuous support, since as the saying goes: "An Open Source Software gets sold only once..."
17:33:26 _mj-xmr[m]> (and Affero so that nobody can close the functionality through a web interface)
17:34:02 _Rucknium[m]> Here's my comment on mj-xmr 's proposal, by the way:
17:34:02 _Rucknium[m]> https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/266#note_12496
17:34:02 _Rucknium[m]> Hmm, the # link doesn't work too well
17:34:06 _mj-xmr[m]> We're already discussing the details with Rucknium
17:34:12 _mj-xmr[m]> Beat me to it.
17:36:11 _carrington[m]> Any questions/comments on the proposal?
17:36:49 _carrington[m]> I think a reddit post would be good for this too if there isn't one already
17:37:42 _carrington[m]> Seems uncontroversial anyways, I'll move along
17:37:50 _carrington[m]> e. Feather wallet dev for 3 months
17:38:05 _carrington[m]> https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/267
17:38:12 _tobtoht> I shared the proposal on Reddit a few days ago and received positive feedback: https://old.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/qmufvc/ccs_proposal_continued_feather_wallet_development/
17:38:19 _tobtoht> Here to answer questions should anyone have any
17:39:20 _carrington[m]> I have to admit I've not tried Feather out but the comments & feedback I've seen have been universally positive
17:40:10 _Lovera[m]> carrington[m]: The best wallet desktop 😎
17:41:28 _crypto_grampy[m]> Really like what you're doing tobtoht . My only requests are adding in config support for XMRig and Monero URI support. How do you go about prioritizing what features to add?
17:42:30 _crypticentertain> _crypticentertain> "Yes. I'm adding this in the..." _- We have made the amendments in the proposal about the creative commons license and we are creating a reddit post as well to take inputs from the community.
17:43:30 _carrington[m]> We are getting to the more recent proposals so I guess maybe people want more time to look at these before moving them?
17:43:38 _carrington[m]> Finals proposal was made 1 day ago
17:43:49 _tobtoht> crypto_grampy[m]: "My only requests are adding in config support for XMRig and Monero URI support." -> Yep, both are on the to-do list.
17:44:26 _tobtoht> crypto_grampy[m]: "How do you go about prioritizing what features to add?" -> Last in, first out. Mostly.
17:44:29 _carrington[m]> Now that feather is out of beta I'll give it a whirl
17:44:53 _carrington[m]> Last proposal:
17:44:53 _carrington[m]> https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/268
17:45:43 _Lovera[m]> Hello guys, Lovera here. This is my proposal!!
17:45:58 _carrington[m]> I'll suggest a reddit post here as well. Best that as many people in the community see proposals as is possible.
17:47:31 _carrington[m]> It would be good to have some Spanish speaking community members feedback on this
17:47:32 _Lovera[m]> carrington[m]: Ok! I will do a post in Reddit today or tomorrow 👍🏼
17:48:40 _carrington[m]> 5. Documentation/UX improvement ideas
17:49:23 _carrington[m]> Several people have expressed concern with outdated/incomplete documentation and onboarding materials
17:49:38 _Rucknium[m]> #moneroes:monero.social is the Spanish channel. Quite active.
17:51:02 _crypto_grampy[m]> carrington[m]: ErCiccione: can you speak at all to this one? What are the challenges and what do you think would help in this area?
17:51:06 _Rucknium[m]> I see people come into #monero-dev:monero.social wanting to contribute, but we give them no clear path.
17:51:18 _carrington[m]> There is a new room #monero-ux:monero.social for any initiatives in this area
17:51:26 _ErCiccione> ^ this
17:51:44 _ErCiccione> I think having a workgroup dedicated to improve Monero's UX could be very beneficial
17:52:04 _ErCiccione> we need somebody to work on the documentation for both users and devs
17:52:15 _ErCiccione> https://github.com/monero-project/monero-site/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22%F0%9F%93%9A+docs%3A+dev+guides%22
17:52:15 _ErCiccione> especially https://github.com/monero-project/monero-site/issues/1434
17:52:22 _ErCiccione> https://github.com/monero-project/monero-site/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22%F0%9F%93%9A+docs%22
17:52:30 _ErCiccione> https://github.com/monero-project/monero-site/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22%F0%9F%93%9A+docs%3A+user+guides%22
17:53:30 _ErCiccione> Personally i would he happy to support a CCS with the goal of refreshing at least the dev docs
17:54:18 _crypto_grampy[m]> ErCiccione: It would be great if it was akin to MRL or Monero-dev. Very topic focused on docs, and improving onboarding and overall experience for new users, doc-writers, merchants and devs, etc
17:54:31 _carrington[m]> Maybe it would be a good idea to create a few bounties for docs, and then if a suitable person is found that way they can make a CCS for a bigger update?
17:55:04 _ErCiccione> Bounties work in my experience
17:57:42 _carrington[m]> Maybe a bounty for updating all the RPC guides?
17:58:08 _crypto_grampy[m]> _Rucknium[m]> "I see people come into #monero-..." _- What do you think is a good solution for this
17:58:15 _carrington[m]> But then it's hard to determine who gets the bounty if multiple people make pull requests
17:59:33 _Rucknium[m]> crypto_grampy: I'm not really sure since I'm not a software developer. However, isthmus has suggested looking at what other coins do and seeing if we can incorporate their lessons.
18:01:07 _carrington[m]> Well as we are already at an hour people can continue these discussions afterwards or in #monero-ux:monero.social / #monero-bounties:monero.social
18:01:41 _mj-xmr[m]> Thanks for an awesome moderation 🙂
18:01:46 _BusyBoredom[m]> I think a good way to onboard new programmers is to (1) have excellent documentation and (2) have a few github issues marked "beginner". The rest takes care of itself, beginners just need starting points.
18:02:26 _crypto_grampy[m]> BusyBoredom[m]: definitely agree on the marked for beginner issues. even for documentation
18:02:33 _carrington[m]> 6. Workgroup reports
18:02:38 _Rucknium[m]> Something to think about: Would people be interested in a funding system independent of CCS that would focus specifically on research to improve Monero's core protocol?
18:02:51 _crypto_grampy[m]> mj-xmr[m]: Yeah bravo carrington ! 😄
18:03:09 _mj-xmr[m]> I thought we're over >__
18:03:28 _carrington[m]> We can keep going with the other stuff on the agenda if people want
18:03:34 _Rucknium[m]> I also thought we were over 🤔
18:03:53 _Rucknium[m]> We haven't had a meeting in N weeks, so I would be fine to keep going
18:03:54 _carrington[m]> I'll leave the floor open if any workgroups want to do some quick updates or shilling
18:04:46 _carrington[m]> Floor is also open for "open ideas"
18:06:12 _carrington[m]> Meta topic: should these meetings be every 2 weeks? Would people prefer a different meeting structure?
18:06:16 _Rucknium[m]> Would people be interested in a funding system independent of CCS that would focus specifically on research to improve Monero's core protocol?
18:06:35 _carrington[m]> Yes, but who would custody?
18:07:13 _Rucknium[m]> I'm not sure. Suggestions?
18:07:48 _carrington[m]> MAGIC maybe?
18:07:57 _carrington[m]> It has been offered iirc
18:08:45 _Rucknium[m]> Maybe, but that would probably require KYC for the recipients.
18:10:47 _carrington[m]> Well we all trust core with the CCS and bounty wallets so I think trusting a "MRL core" isn't a crazy idea
18:11:24 _carrington[m]> But I guess this is more a MRL meta discussion, so it can move to #monero-research-lounge:monero.social for the purposes of ending logs
18:11:49 _tobtoht> On the topic of documentation, I recently put up documentation for Feather Wallet: : https://docs.featherwallet.org/
18:11:55 _tobtoht> Would love to hear your thoughts
18:11:56 _ArticMine> My take on funding is that there needs to be different options with the current CCS being one of them
18:12:13 _ArticMine> This is in the interest of decentralization
18:12:27 _carrington[m]> I'll try and do another of these meetings in 2 weeks if people want that